Talk:Devil Gene/Archive II

NB! This is a continuation of the discussion found in Archive I

Devil is refer to as the Devil Gene/ Devil is a life form 2

User: Faeli34 I like y'all thoughts on the Devil=Devil Gene. I think Devil is refered to as the Devil Gene because we all know that the only way Devil can inhabit kazuya is through the Devil gene. Meaning that the Devil Gene is the physical aspect of Devil. According to physics. Everything around us is physical. Meaning that this what we live in is call the physical plane. So the entity known as Devil is a spirit. A spirit can't exist in the physical plane because it will need a physical aspect of itself which is a body. So the only way Devil could exist is through the Devil Gene. In T4, when Devil said i lost apart of myself. He meant when kazuya's body was badly burn in the valcano, thus nearly killing the physical aspect of Devil, the "Devil Gene". which If kazuya would have lost all his devil genes, Devil would cease to exist or die. That's why Devil came to Jin in the first place. Because kazuya lost most of his Devil Genes. Which weaken Devil. Which also makes its easy for kazuya to unify Devil into himself. Devil kazuya came to Jin to retreive his Devil Genes. To replace what Devil lost, that was apart of him. ("My half" which is translated and japanese"Wago no hashin" which is translated english "Half of my body"). Which Devil meant Jin Kazama's Devil Genes. Which is a physical aspect of Devil. Also this is what Devil meant when he said Jin was his other half, do to them sharing the Devil Gene. User: Faeli34

The use of hanshin means that he's talking about his own body specifically, not just something that is similar to it. So he's not looking for a -replacement- for his lost half, he's looking for the lost half -itself- which (according to Devil) is inside Jin. So it has little to due with Jin possessing the Devil Gene and everything to due with that half of Devil that is dwelling inside Jin. --Hecko 17:53, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

Hey hecko, off the topic. You translated half of my body wrong. Its translated "watashi no karda no hanbun" not "wago no hashin". Go to Google Translate User: Faeli34

Back to the topic. Hecko here's what you said in one of your key issueds above: "*The word translated in the ending as "my half..." is "waga no hanshin (我の半身)", which more specifically means "half of my body". As you can see, Kazuya is very much not missing any body parts, so the only explanation would be for Devil to have been an independent spiritual being living within Kazuya's body (which would make it possible for him to lose half his body), cause if he was just a gene, then Kazuya's body would equal Devil's body, which we can infer that it doesn't as; a) that would make him dead; b) he wouldn't be able to transfer half of himself to Jin".

Devil said half of my body which mean his own body. But what did Devil mean when he said "half of my body"? You can't say he meant half of his spirit, because he said his own body( A body is a material whole of a living or dead person or animal) which means something physical. A spirit is a being that is a ghost that has no material body. Which means Devil as a spirit doesn't have a body. Meaning Devil as a spiritual being is possessing Kazuya's body as its host or vessel. Which means "Devil" as a spirit and Kazuya share the same body. If Devil meant half of his spirit, then Devil wouldn't have never said "watashi no karada no hanbun" "half of my body". He would have said "watashi no kokor no hanbun" "half of my spirit". Basically Hecko when Devil meant "half of my body" you couldn't figure out what Devil meant by any parts of his body being missing. So you infered that Devil was refering to a spiritual half of himself. When Devil said "half of my body" he meant kazuya's body as his body. Let me explain, hecko you miss out on another phrase Devil said. When Devil said "when you nearly killed me" to heihachi. What was the part of Devil, heihachi was killing? You can't say heihachi was killing the the spiritual half of Devil. Because Devil is a spirit. You cannot harm a spirit. It is untouchable, it isn't bodily material, Which means physical. Once again what part of Devil, heihachi was killing? Well the only person heihachi was killing was kazuya. When he was thrown down that volcano. So Devil was refering to kazuya as himself. Because Devil share the same body as kazuya. Now let's go to another phrase of devil. "I lost apart of myself" what part of himself he lost? You can't say he lost apart of his spiritual half. Because you said devil transfered the other half to Jin Kazama. So how he going to tell heihachi he lost apart of himself when he gave the other apart to Jin. You can't say you lost apart of yourself when you gave half of yourself to someone else. That don't make any sense. Once again, what part of himself he lose? Well when kazuya was thrown down that volcano he lost a lot of blood when his body was badly burn. Kazuya's blood holds the Devil Gene. Thus kazuya lost a lot of his devil genes. Making Devil weak. Which tells you how heihachi was killing devil. Because of kazuya's body being shared by devil, both of them lost blood and a lot devil genes. Remember, the only way devil can inhabit kazuya is through the devil genesUser: Faeli34

Previously above Hecko, you said that Devil spiritually transfered half of himself to jin in Tekken 2 and 3. This means that you are saying that Devil Jin is spiritualy Devil's other half. But due to the concept of the Devil Gene, it somewhat of retconned the spiritual concept of 'Devil' in the earlier canonical games, it is unknown to say if Devil Jin is the spiritual half of Devil. According to Devil Jin's Tekken 5 prologue it states that "When the Devil Gene Takes over Jin Kazama". This statement clearly means the Devil Gene itself Takes over Jin's Mind and body in its possession. In this statement, it never mentions Devil's other spiritual half controling Jin's Devil Gene what so ever. If so it would have stated. instead it refer Devil as the Devil gene itself that is possessing him. Also in Devil's article, it states that only the Devil that inhabits kazuya's body is and have only refer to its self as "Devil", the other devils, such as Devil Jin and Jinpachi has not referred to them selfs as or apart of the entity known as "Devil". And this could mean that Devil Jin and Jinpachi's devil are two seperate entities from "Devil". If one say that 'Devil' is a seprated devil from Devil Jin, but at the same time say that 'Devil jin is the spiritual half of 'Devil', he would contradict the fact that they are seperate individual devils, it doesn't make any since for a spirit to be conscious in two places at the same time, while wanting to fight and absorb one another. That's jus like me wanting to fight my self. So they have to have some individual boundaries between them. User: Teriko

NB! Due to an edit conflict, the replies are handled seperatly. The first part is for Faeli

Off topic, you failed the argument as soon as you said "Go to Google Translate". Translation software is notoriously inaccurate and restricted in its translations, especially in terms of synonyms, idioms, or words with multiple meanings. Example:

• [Watasahi wa hikimiasu http://translate.google.com/#ja%7Cen%7C%E7%A7%81%E3%81%AF%E5%BC%95%E3%81%8D%E3%81%BE%E3%81%99]. The suggested translation is "I draw". However, it could also be "I pull", "I play (a stringed instrument)", "I subtract", yet none of translations for the alternate meanings of "hiku" are present. So if you think online translations are always accurate, you are mistaken.
• P.S. I study Japanese as a major at an international university. While I might not be the greatest at it and I might be wrong from time to time, I would appreciate it if you didn't just assume that I had no idea of what I was talking about.

*sigh* And it seems we've entered a whole new dimension of semantics, but ok, I'll play along. I'll try to keep things short and easy to understand.

• You can't say he meant half of his spirit, because he said his own body( A body is a material whole of a living or dead person or animal) which means something physical. A spirit is a being that is a ghost that has no material body. Which means Devil as a spirit doesn't have a body.
  • Causal body, subtle body, mental body, astral/emotional body, etheric body. None of these bodies are physical. Neither is the spirit *aka* the spiritual body. But if you wanna get reeeeeally technical "Aの半身" means "half of [what makes up] A" --> "A's half". I just kept the "body" part because I figured it would help you understand the concept better, I didn't expect y'all would get hung up and anal about the word. If it would confuse you less, you can consider "waga no hanshin" as meaning "half of me".
• If Devil meant half of his spirit, then Devil wouldn't have never said "watashi no karada no hanbun" "half of my body".
  • Except he never said "watashi no karada no hanbun". Have you even tried listening to the dialogue? :/
• He would have said "watashi no kokor no hanbun" "half of my spirit".
  • Why would he use such a clumsy, ambiguous phrasing, when "waga no hanshin" is far more precise while conveying the same overall message (half of me)?
• Basically Hecko when Devil meant "half of my body" you couldn't figure out what Devil meant by any parts of his body being missing.
  • What's not to figure out..? To me, it seemed pretty simple: Before they got thrown into the volcano, Devil was complete and Kazuya was complete. After they got thrown into the volcano, Devil was incomplete (parts missing) and Kazuya was incomplete (parts missing). Kazuya got restored to the way he was before the volcano incident by the G Corporation (as described in the game). So obviously, the only one that is still missing something is Devil. Pretty straight-forward, I'd say :/
• When Devil said "half of my body" he meant kazuya's body as his body. Let me explain, hecko you miss out on another phrase Devil said.
  • He didn't. Let me explain, Faeli, you miss out on another phrase Devil said (yes, I'm using the exact same phrase you did because I'm loving the irony). "So you were with him after all, my half... Devil is implying that the part he lost is inside Jin. Well, not so much implying as he's directly saying that the part he lost is inside Jin. Not something similar to the part he lost, the exact part (better emphasis in the Japanese dialogue).
  • Now, let's pretend that he really -did- mean Kazuya's body as his body, just for sake of argument. How would you explain how the parts that Kazuya lost when he got thrown into the volcano ended up inside Jin? Firstly, they got destroyed by lava/fire. Secondly, even if they didn't get destroyed, they're human parts; how would human parts transfer inside another human being growing inside the womb of a person probably hundreds of miles away?
• [entire rest of text]
  • I didn't feel like quoting more stuff. Devil never gave anything to Jin. Half of him got seperated from the other half, and the other half (the one that remain with Kazuya) had no idea of where the first half ended up, he only had a suspicion. That is what he means by that he lost half of himself (better emphasized in the Japanese dialogue where he doesn't say "I lost a part of myself when[...]," but rather "a part of me was seperated when[...]"). You can see the lost part of Devil in the T3 console intro.

This part is for Teriko

• Previously above Hecko, you said that Devil spiritually transfered half of himself to jin in Tekken 2 and 3. This means that you are saying that Devil Jin is spiritualy Devil's other half. But due to the concept of the Devil Gene, it somewhat of retconned the spiritual concept of 'Devil' in the earlier canonical games, it is unknown to say if Devil Jin is the spiritual half of Devil.
  • Except for pretty much everything that occurs in T4 and some of the stuff in T5 as well, which is after the retcon, wherein it is stated that the devil spirit inside Devil Jin is the half that Devil had lost 20 years earlier.
• According to Devil Jin's Tekken 5 prologue it states that "When the Devil Gene Takes over Jin Kazama". This statement clearly means the Devil Gene itself Takes over Jin's Mind and body in its possession. In this statement, it never mentions Devil's other spiritual half controling Jin's Devil Gene what so ever. If so it would have stated. instead it refer Devil as the Devil gene itself that is possessing him.
  • Genes have no independent thought or identity; they're genes. Furthermore, I checked Devil Jin's Japanese prologue, it never even mentioned genes. Instead, it said "Controlled by Devil's consanguinity, Jin Kazama...", which pretty much just makes things even more confusing and could imply a ton of different things I'd rather not go into. Anyway, Jinpachi says to Devil Jin: "You cannot defeat me after giving in to the Devil" (in the Jap version, it's just "Devil", not "the Devil") and Devil Jin refers to himself in plural, so he must realize that that there's a second conscious in there.
• Also in Devil's article, it states that only the Devil that inhabits kazuya's body is and have only refer to its self as "Devil", the other devils, such as Devil Jin and Jinpachi has not referred to them selfs as or apart of the entity known as "Devil". And this could mean that Devil Jin and Jinpachi's devil are two seperate entities from "Devil".
  • Except the article doesn't state that. It states that other people refer to it as Devil, not that it does it itself. Devil's dialogue with Heihachi in T4 indicates that it is called something else, if anything at all.
• If one say that 'Devil' is a seprated devil from Devil Jin, but at the same time say that 'Devil jin is the spiritual half of 'Devil', he would contradict the fact that they are seperate individual devils, it doesn't make any since for a spirit to be conscious in two places at the same time, while wanting to fight and absorb one another. That's jus like me wanting to fight my self. So they have to have some individual boundaries between them.
  • What? You're now suddenly an expert in the usual behaviour of devil spirits? Is there a book on this somewhere that I haven't read? There could be lots of explanations that could be used to explain this. For instance, the part that could've escaped could've gained a new sentience/identity. It could be it wants to get even stronger which could explain why it want's to absorb other devils. it could be that it might lose its new found sense of self if absorb by Devil, and it doesn't want to got back to that, which is why it fights. There could be other reasons as well, but they're all circumstancial at best. Just hope that Namco publishes something that explains this in greater detail.

--Hecko 21:42, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't think a person or thing/spirit consciousness can be splitted into 2 consciousness. when kazuya and jun was intimate not only did they conceive jin as they child but devil also to because of the devil gene, when jin was born he picked up genes from kazuya and jun. when he picked up the genes of kazuya and jun he also picked up the genes of devil. That's what devil meant when he said my half. The point is is that devil jin is the son of devil kazuya, and jin is the son of kazuya and jun. User:Ace jackson

Devil clearly states that the half he's talking about is the one he lost when he was almost killed by Heihachi. Jin had already been conceived by then. Your timeline is off by several weeks, so what you said can't be correct. --Hecko 18:18, 23 February 2010 (UTC)